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| salamis |
Date:
Sun, 4 Feb 1996
From:
Kotliar
Subject:
Salamis
There
was a recent show on TV on the battle of Salamis. Xerxes was said to
have lost a couple of hundred ships, and the Greeks 40. This means
the Athenians had a lot more than 40 ships. Were most of the
Athenian fleet triremes? If so how had Athens got the manpower for
all those ships-was every adult Male Athenian onboard? My friend and
I are always amazed by the size of the forces involved in the
warfare of Greek city-states (even conservative figures). Just what
% of their male population were they willing to sacrifice in these
battles? It seems the Greeks were extremely militarized comapred to
their neighbors. Is this a fair assessment, or was such high
militarism typical of ancient city-states and empires in the Med. (I
never know what to make of figures for the Persian armies since it
was in the interest of the victors to greatly exaggerate the size of
these Persian armies).
Date:
Sun, 4 Feb 1996
From:
Bryan Feuer
Subject:
Re: Salamis
The
Athenians had about 200 ships. A very large proportion of the
citizen population (which varied from one polis to another) could
have potentially served in battles between city-states or with
Persia. In Athens all citizens between 18 and 45 were expected so
provide military service when called upon. Since Athens had by far
the largest navy, and the largest population, the majority of them
served in the navy.
Date:
Tue, 6 Feb 1996
From:
Loizos Demetris
Subject:
Re:
Salamis
How
the ships were manned is described in the so called decree of
Themistocles (only surviving copy on a 3rd c. stele). Original in
Meiggs & David, A Selection of Greek Historical Inscriptions and
translation in C. W Fornara. ed. Archaic Times to the end of the
Peloponnesian War (Translated Docs of Greece & Rome), no 55. The
Athenians had a problem of finding men for their ships and they
might have employed even thetes, who did not have military
obligations.
Date:
Mon, 5 Feb 1996
From:
Nick Nicastro
Subject:
Re: Salamis
Bryan
Feuer Jay and Bryan: Yes, Athens was an atypically large Greek
polis, and therefore could afford the manpower to launch such a
force. But it was my impression that Athenian citizens did NOT
typically serve in the Navy-- this was left mostly to metics,
slaves, and other such disenfrancized males. Citizens would could
afford the equipment were outfitted rather as hoplites or served in
the cavalry. Then again, since Salamis was a time of extraordinary "national
emergency", there may have been many citizens per se serving in
the Greek fleet... Can anyone more informed clarify this?
Date:
Tue, 6 Feb 1996
From:
"A.Keen"
Subject:
Salamis
On
the contrary, whilst there were undoubtedly slaves, metics and
foreigners in Athenian fleets (Plataians and Chalkidians served at
Salamis; Hdt 8.1). the evidence points strongly to citizen manning
of the fleet at least being a regular feature. To cite just three of
many examples: in Perikles' speech to the Athenian Assembly he
speaks of three types of sailor in the Athenian fleet, foreigners,
metics, and "ourselves", i.e. the Athenian citizens whom
he is addressing. (Th. 1.143); the Old Oligarch says that the
*demos* of Athens provides the rowers for the fleet (Ps.-X. *AP*
1.2); the Chorus in *Frogs* (702) suggests that all who fight at sea
for Athens should be made enfranchised citizens, in a context that
implies that at least some already were. How great a proportion of
the Athenian navy's rowers were citizens is uncertain, and it
probably varied from campaign to campaign (Nikias seems to have had
a high proportion of non-citizens in Sicily: Th. 7.13). But there
would undoubtedly have been a large number of those Athenians who
could not afford hoplite armour or horses in the fleet, and the Old
Oligarch is clear that it is upon their contribution to Athenian
power that Athenian democracy rested.
Date:
Tue, 6 Feb 1996
From:
"Timothy M. Teeter"
Subject:
Re: Salamis
Without checking any references, it is hard to see how a majority of
the fleet rowers could not have been citizens, at least by the end
of the fifth century if not at the time of Salamis. How else could
the fleet have formed a kind of floating government-in-exile after
the oligarchic coup of 411 and demanded a return to the democracy?
Date:
Tue, 6 Feb 1996
From:
"mah0n08@xxxxxx"
Subject:
Salamis
I seem to remember that Themistokles had the Athenians build up a
fleet of about two hundred triremes- some may have been lost in
earlier actions, though. The rest of the Greeks supplied slightly
more triremes. At least at Athens uring the Classical period all
CITIZENS were liable to duty between the ages of 18 an d 60 - they
served in the various services according to their social/economic r
ank, of which there were five (if my memory serves me). The highest
two ranks provided cavalry and triremes(and often served as
captains- though usually with a professional second in command), the
third rank provided the bulk of the hoplite force(they had to be
wealthy enough to afford the equipment- roughly the equivalent of a
nice car(?)), while the last two (the poorest) provided the oarsmen
for the fleet and light infantry. The program had several mistakes,
the most glaring of which was the suggestion that the triremes were
rowedby slaves. Tri remes were the only line of battle ships at the
time- there were lighter types- but these were only used for light
duties- triremes were faster and tougher, though they did require a
much larger crew. The Athenians were generally able to field 10,000
hoplites in normal circumstances- more in emergencies (how much mo
re?)- these would all have been Athenians- in the case of rowers
there would ha ve been a large number of non-Athenians. Athens was
the most populous state in Greece for most of the Archaic and
Classical period. "The Athenian Trireme" is a good source
for more info., as are Thucydides, and V.D. Hanson's books "The
Western Way of War" and one on Hoplite warfare (the title
escapes me). Hope this helps and that others can correct any
mistakes of fill in gaps (especially for sources).
Date:
Tue, 6 Feb 1996
From:
Bryan Feuer
Subject:
Re: Salamis
As
I understand it, Athenian citizens comprised a wide range of
socioeconomic positions. Only the wealthier citizens could afford
the equipment to be hoplites; according to Thucydides, as I recall,
Athens used between 10,000 and 15,000 hoplites during the
Peloponnesian War. That would have left a considerable number of
poorer citizens, as well as metics, to serve as rowers. I don't
believe that slaves were used in the navy. |
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