|
| patron
god of thebes |
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1993 1
From:
Loius A. Okin
Subject:
PATRON GODS OF THEBES
Dear
Colleagues: a professor in another department asked me a question I
don't know the answer to and can't seem to find rapidly. Who was the
patron deity (or deities) of Thebes as Athena was of Athens?
Date:
Fri, 26 Feb 1993
From:
Peter Davis
I think the answer to this question is that Bacchus is the main
patron deity of Thebes. At least he seems to be so in literature. He
often figures in plays set in Thebes and has a major role to play in
the first choral ode in Seneca's Oedipus and in Statius' Thebaid.
Date:
Thu, 25 Feb 1993
Subject:
Re: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
In
the _Bacchae_, Dionysius frenzied the women of Thebes after his
worship became forgotten. I'm not sure if that qualifies Liber
though.
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1993
From:
Tony Keen
Subject:
Re: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
I'm not sure there *is* an answer to this. Athens was rather
exceptional in placing so much emphasis on one single deity; other
cities tended to be more even-handed (okay, there are exceptions,
such as the place of honour for the Dioskuridai at Sparta). If there
is an answer, I'd be tempted to look not to Dionysos (hardly the
most public-spirited of deities), but to Apollo (note the importance
the Thebans placed on having influence at Delphi).
Date:
Fri, 26 Feb 1993
From:
Debra Hershkowitz
Subject:
Re: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
Based
on Statius' Thebaid, one might say that Tisiphone is the patron god
of Thebes.
Date:
Fri, 26 Feb 1993
From:
David Meadows
Subject:
Re: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
Surely Tony Keen is right to assert that Athens was exceptional in
having a single patron deity, as evidenced by the myriad candidaties
for a patron deity for Thebes. My vote would be for Herakles, since
he was born there and a number of tales connect him with that city
(Tiryns as well).
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1993
From:
Marny Payne
Subject:
Re: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
I protest that Athens is an exception in having a single patron
diety as Tony Keen & David Meadows assert. What of Zeus at
Olympia, Dion, and Tony Keen & David Meadows assert. What of
Zeus at Olympia, Dion, and Samos; Artemis at Sparta? Granted, some
of these are cult sites but there were also communities built around
them. It is an interesting question.
Date:
Fri, 26 Feb 1993
From:
John Peradotto
Subject:
Re: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
If a non-Theban has any credibility, Sophocles answers your question
by having his chorus in the *Tyrannus* call on Dionysus as "tasd'
eponymon gas" (OT 210).
Date:
Fri, 26 Feb 1993
From:
Neel Smith
Subject: Re: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
I agree with Tony Keen and David Meadows that "THE patron deity"
is probably not the question; on Heracles as an "emblem"
of thebes, the coinage of 5th century Thebes is especially
interesting -- Theban Heracles motifs apparently replace indications
of the individual poleis of the Boeotian League when Thebes asserts
its hegemony over the League.
Date:
Fri, 26 Feb 1993
From:
C.M. Antonaccio
Subject:
Re: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
Two
points re: patron gods - Leaving aside literary refs., there is a
temple to Apollo Ismenios (at least). Try consulting S. Symeonoglou,
The Topography of Thebes from the Bronze Age to Modern Times
(Princeton 1985). As for Athens being unusual in having a single
patron deity: off the top of my head, I associate Hera with Argos,
possibly with Tiryns, and Athena with Mycenae (I'm workingon the
Argolid at the moment). These are all former Mycenaean citadels (so
is Athens), and one questions is how the prior history of a given
community affects later patterns of cult. (see F. de Polignac, La
naissance de la cite grecque [Paris 1984]) for Iron Age and archaic
patterns.
Date:
Fri, 26 Feb 1993
From:
Charles Hedrick
Subject:
Re: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
There
is not an absolute insistence on Athena at Athens. Cf. the story of
the conflict between Athena and Poseidon, and the various cults of
the Erechtheum. Anyway, for Thebes, I would have said the central
state god was surely Dionysos: see Pausanias, who says, in
connection with the House of Cadmus on the Cadmea that "there
is also a story that along with the thunderbolt hurled at the bridal
chamber of Semele, there fell a log from heaven. They say that
Polydorus adorned this log with bronze and called it Dionysus
Cadmus. Near is an image of Dionysus..."
Date:
Fri, 26 Feb 1993
From:
"matt n."
Subject:
RE: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
The
"correct" answer is, Ares and Aphrodite. But I know none
of you will believe *me*.
Date:
Fri, 26 Feb 1993
From:
Mark Williams
Subject:
Re: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
Well,
sort of on Thebes' patron deities... In the museum at Thebes you can
see two herms done up like Herakles (items no. 49 and 160). The
museum guide dates no. 49 to the 2d century BCE, and no. 160 to the
1st c. BCE. I've never seen figures like them before or since this
trip to the museum; are these sorts of herms paralleled elsewhere in
Greece? Would such a "composite herm" by any chance be
evidence of a special cult through which Herakles might be
associated especially with Thebes (even if not as a "patron")?
Date:
Fri, 26 Feb 1993
From:
Tony Keen
Subject:
Patron Gods of Thebes
Things I never said, but people seem to think I did: 1) I never said
that Athena was worshipped exclusively of all other deities at
Athens, even on the level of public cults; that would be silly,
given the quite clear evidence to the contrary. 2) I never said that
Athens was unique in placing much more emphasis on one deity than
another, and accept all the examples Marny Payne and C. Antonaccio
present. BUT... I do think Athens (and Argos, Olympia, Sparta, etc.)
were unusual in this respect, and that the run-of-the-mill poleis
(of which there were a hell of a lot) tended not to have one single
deity more identified with the affairs of that polis than the rest
of the pantheon, and that Thebes fits in with this latter category
(hence Herakles on the coins, Dionysus in Sophokles, & the
temple of Apollo Ismenias; they're *all* patrons of Thebes).
Date:
Fri, 26 Feb 1993
From:
Chris Nappa
Subject:
RE: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
For what it's worth, Aeschylus mentions an Athena Onka at _Septem_
487 & 503; Hutchinson has a brief note on 487.
Date:
Fri, 26 Feb 1993
From:
Joel Lidov
Subject:
RE: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
In
the parados of Soph. Antig. Ares and Dionys. are paired (end of
antis. A and antis. B) as protectors of Thebes .
Date: Mon, 1 Mar
From:
"William J. Dominik"
Subject:
Re: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
Based on literary evidence I agree with P Davis that Bacchus was the
patron deity of Thebes - at least from the Roman viewpoint. Statius
makes this apparent in the Thebaid. Tisiphone is certainly not the
patron deity of Thebes in the Thebaid: she along with the other
Furies are portrayed as vindictive and merciless deities who inspire
men to violence and is directly responsible, for instance, for the
duel between Polynices and Eteocles. I
Date:
Mon, 1 Mar 1993
From: Debra Hershkowitz
Subject: Re: PATRON GODS OF THEBES
If
anyone thinks that I meant that the vindictive and merciless fury
should be seriously considered the patron god of Thebes in the
*Thebaid*, he (or she) is right. Tisiphone makes herself the patron
god of the city, which she *cognataue Tartara mauult* (Theb.1. 102):
she does more for the city and cares more for the city than any of
the Olympian gods - admittedly in a perverse way, but this is a
perverse poem. Similarly, she subsumes and twists Jupiter's function
of insurer of justice when she bursts into the poem *ilicet igne
Iouis* (1.92), answering Oedipus' prayer for vengeance against his
impious sons in a much more direct way than Jupiter does. Also,
perhaps, that well-known passage of Ps.-Plutarch has been forgotten,
namely, *De fluu.* 2.2, which tells of Tisiphone's love for
Cithaeron (thus giving her a very intimate connexion with the
prehistory of Thebes). |
| Culled
from
classics.log9302
and
classics.log9303. |
|