|
| east/west
comparisons |
Date:
Fri, 25 Sep 1992 1
From:
Stephen Epstein
Subject:
East/West comparisons
I'd
be interested in hearing from anyone out there who has particular
interest in the comparison of Eastern (by which I mean East
Asian--Chinese, Korean, Japanese) and Western classical literature.
Has anybody taught courses which have focused equally upon both
literary traditions? I'm in the process of working up a course which
will examine side by side Eastern and Western literary genres (at
this point my plan is to consider both the ancient novel and
historiography) and would appreciate thoughts/comments/advice from
anyone who has done something similar.
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992
From:
"Daniel P. Tompkins"
Subject:
Re: East/West comparisons
Arthur
Waley, according to one biog., regarded 11th-12th c. AD Japanese
court culture as extremely refined, where "every gesture"
had meaning. He also considered it similar to the culture of 5th c.
Athens. The notion of these murderous, warlike, phthonos-filled
folks acting like Jamesian aristocrats seems jarring, today, but
there it is. All this is buried in libraries, and I don't think I've
got the refs.
Date:
Fri, 25 Sep 1992
From:
Laurel Bowman
Subject:
phthonos
Which
group, the Athenians or the Japanese, do you find it difficult to
imagine behaving like Jamesian aristocrats? Though in fact I don't
find it hard to imagine murderous, warlike and prideful natures
coexisting with a culture in which every gesture had meaning; quite
the contrary. Just imagine that many of the coded gestures signified
insults.
Date:
Fri, 25 Sep 1992
From:
"Daniel P. Tompkins"
Subject:
Re: phthonos
Good
question from Laurel Bowman. I was concerned about the idealization,
by Waley, of Athens--his neglect of the rough and tumble of life in
the agora and ekklesia. Returning to James, the Athenians fit more
readily into the template he gives Americans--non-aristocratic,
aggressive, f deemed rude by their European acquaintances. I've got
to log off now. But the question of how we generalize about other
cultures may be basic to consideration of Greek/Oriental art and
lit., which is where we started. So I'd like to pursue it.
Date:
Fri, 25 Sep 1992
From:
"O MH KATA MHXANHN"
Subject: Re: East/West comparisons
There
was, of course, an interesting book comparing Aeschylean dramaturgy
with the Noh (or No) by Mae Smethurst (The Artistry of Aeschylus and
Zeami; Princeton, 1989).
Date:
Sun, 27 Sep 1992
From:
Owen Cramer
Subject:
Re: East/West comparisons
I
teach an east/west course with my colleague Timothy Cheek in which
we do some big "axial age" geopolitical/cultural
comparisons, heady but always dangerous, and some particular
comparisons like the ones David Keightley offers in ch. 2 of _The
Heritage of China_ (Berkeley 1990)--Pollitt's favorite
Penthesilea/Achilles kylix with an Eastern Chou _hu_ wine vase
showing war scenes, by way of comparing "the hero" in
Greece and China. I'd have chosen something frome the Dipylon
instead of romantic red-figure: the point is that China early went
in for social harmony not personal heroism, perhaps as Keightley
argues because of factors like high Neolithic population density,
riparian abundance and lack of ethnic diversity in direct
experience. On narrative, I came across a fascinating three-way
comparison in C. Ramelb, ed., _Biography, East and West_ (U. Hawaii
1989): Norman Geschwind's little piece on "Hua-Sheng-Tun:
Confucian Hero", re: Washington as Cincinnatus and T'ai Po.
Date:
Tue, 29 Sep 1992
From:
Victoria Pedrick
Subject:
Re: East/West comparisons
Concerning
a comparison between Eastern and Western cultures and literature, I
taught a course last semester which contrasted concepts of the hero,
especially between the Odyssey and Tale of Genji. The latter is a
lot of work to teach--you have to make judicious cuts and the only
available edition which is condensed is way too condensed (seventeen
chapters from just the first third of the novel), but I found that
the students really responded to the contrast. Has anyone else
taught Genji? Or a Chinese novel in a similar context?
Tue, 29 Sep 1992
From:
Bob Ingria
Subject:
Re: East/West comparisons
One obvious nexus of similarities is Heraclitus and Taoist
literature. When I first read Hearaclitus I was intrigued, but his
work didn't seem to connect to anything else. When I later read
Lao-Tzu, it was a shock to see how much they had in common. I was
also a bit peeved that none of the discussions of Heraclitus in the
classicist literature seemed to be aware of the commonalities.
(They're fairly well-known in the literature on mysticism and
transcendence; cf. Huxley's _The Perennial Philosophy_.)
Date:
Thu, 1 Oct 1992
From:
Laurel Bowman
Subject:
conscious thought & Taoism
re:
East-West - I was much struck, when reading Herodotus &
Heraclitus, by the similarities to Taoist thought, and at one point
wanted to do my diss. on that subject; I was dissuaded by my
advisor, who thought that it was the wrong time to embark on
learning Mandarin. Some people have no sense of adventure. I've
never suspected a direct influence of any kind, of course; but would
anyone like to argue that point? I don't know enough about the
Eastern trade routes at that period.
Date:
Fri, 2 Oct 1992
From:
Harold Sjursen
Subject:
Re: conscious thought & Taoism
The
issue of possible direct influence does not greatly interest me
(although I think there was none), but the profound similarities
between Lao Tzu and Heraclitus are very fascinating. As one with
philosophical training and barely adequate abilities in Greek and
classical Chinese I would like to pursue the serious study of these
similarities. Discussions rarely get beyond the superficial because
(I guess) of language limitations. I would like to hear from any
others out there who try to work in both Greek and Chinese texts.
Also, Laurel you mentioned parallels or similarities between Taoism
and Herodotus. Did you have a specific example in mind?
Date:
Fri, 2 Oct 1992
From:
Stephen Epstein
Subject:
Re: East/West Comparisons
I just heard from Stan Lombardo at the University of Kansas, who is
currently editing a book with Steve Addiss that consists of parallel
passages from the Presocratics and Lao Tzu & Chuang Tzu arranged
thematically with creative commentary from invited contributors.
Those particularly interested may wish to contact him. Also,
classicists who are looking for Eastern connections with Herodotus
may want to have a look someday at Ssu-ma Ch'ien, who has the same
flair for storytelling as Herodotus and is every bit as fun to read.
In fact he is sometimes called the Herodotus of China (to avoid
ethnocentrism maybe we could also call Hdt. the Ssu-ma C'hien of
Greece...). His work can be found most easily in Burton Watson's
Ssu-ma Ch'ien: Grand Historian of China.
Date:
Mon, 5 Oct 1992
From:
Harold Sjursen
Subject:
Re: Taoism & Herodotus
Thanks
to Laurel Bowman for her response. To my way of thinking the nature
of the oracular consultation is quite different in Herodotus than
the I Ching.
Date:
Tue, 6 Oct 1992
From:
Owen Cramer
Subject:
Re: Taoism & Herodotus
Actually,
oracular consultation would be interesting to pursue here: I Ching
and Herodotus' 96 oracles both are literary work-ups based on some
oracular practice; in the case of I Ching it's yarrow-stalks or
coins (well maybe in the Western Chou only stalks?), while as to
Herodotus, Amandry and Delcourt though less clearly Parke and
Wormell, and I don't know what about the recent scholarship, tell us
it's really the "two-bean" oracle (for "yes" or "no"
or some other token-drawing (for things like the 10 Athenian tribes
in 508/7). Then the explanation of the result as an image, or as a
little piece of oral narrative poetry, or whatever is a "secondary"
interpretation that actually ends up primary. |
| Culled
from
classics.log9210
and
classics.log9209.
|
|