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| david
cohen on gays in the military |
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993
From:
Robin Mitchell
Subject:
Cohen on Gays in the NYT
Any
thoughts out there on David Cohens' piece on gays in the Greek
military on the op-ed page of today's New York Times? It struck me
that he well argued the point that has probably occured to many
classicists: that homosexuality in itself does not deter military
efficacy. I also think Cohen's piece is a prime example of the kind
of public service classicists can perform, especially ones at the
more elite institutions which have more clout with the media.
Date:
Wed, 31 Mar 1993
From:
Tony Keen
Subject:
Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT
But,
but, but... actual physically consumated homosexual relations in the
Greek world are between older men and young adolescent boys. Once
said boys get to the age of military service, they are too old to be
the objects of sexual advances from older men (and anyone who did
make such advances would be considered very odd). What survives are
the emotional bonds forged during the previous pederasty, which were
considered beneficial to military cohesion, especially in the
Spartan army. Therefore the sort of homsexuality that Greek soldiers
engaged in and that engaged in by modern soldiers are not really
comparable. (Cohen may well have made this point; we don't get the
NYT over here.)
Date:
Wed, 31 Mar 1993
From:
Dale Grote
Subject:
Cohen's NYT Op-ed
Robin
Mitchell asks for reactions to David Cohen's op-ed piece in the NYT
(March 31), which an editor "cleverly" entitled "Notes
on a Grecian Yearn [:-(]: Pederasty in Thebes and Sparta". I'm
afraid my reaction wasn't as enthusiastic; it seemed to me a string
of silly irrelevancies. In the first place, he indiscriminately
mixed philosophy and history -- a crime I warn my undergraduates
against -- and secondly, the issue of gays in the military isn't
really answerable by appeal to historical precedent. I mean, the
practice of Greek homosexuality and the constitution of the military
were different enough from the practice of late 20 century
homosexuality in the United States and American military
establishments to render the use of historical parallels rather far
fetched. I thought Cohen's piece was quaint, but hardly
enlightening. As a matter of fact, upon rereading the article, I see
that Cohen himself is careful to avoid tying his historical survey
to what the United States is now considering. (In other words, he
appears tacitly to have conceded that he has nothing tangible to
offer.) I'm afraid I can't agree with Robin that this is an example
of how Classicists can shed light on contemporary social issues.
Bien au contraire
Date:
Wed, 31 Mar 1993
From:
"C.G. BROWN"
Subject:
Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT
One
of my colleagues has a cartoon (from the *New Yorker*, I believe) on
her door, in which someone is remarking at a middle class gathering:
"Of course, the Trojan War would have gone differently, if the
Greeks had kept gays out of the military" (these may not be the
exact words).
Date:
Wed, 31 Mar 1993
From:
"C.G. BROWN"
Subject:
Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT
Tony
Keen cast some doubt on the role of active homosexuality in Greek
military life. But it seems to me that Plato in the *Symposium* (no
precise ref.-- the text is at the office) speaks of the *hieros
lochos* at Thebes (I think) as comprising both *erastai* and
*eromenoi*. It may be, however, that this group was exceptional in
this regard (that's certainly how it is treated in Plato). Like TK,
I haven't seen Cohen in the NYT.
Date:
Thu, 1 Apr 1993
From:
Tony Keen
Subject:
Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT
Almost
certainly exceptional, I would say. Everything I've ever learnt
about homosexuality in Athens and Sparta leads me to the conclusion
that homosexual relationships between adult men didn't happen (or at
least were very, very rare...). It's a difference in attitude
towards sex, isn't it? As my ex-supervisor puts it, in the Greek
world sex is something done by a social superior to a social
inferior, not an act of equal participation as it is in the modern
world.
Date:
Thu, 1 Apr 1993
From:
Bowe
Subject:
Gays & Symposium
With
regard to the references made in the Symposium to homosexuals in the
army, it seems that several things are going on. 1) Phaedrus wishes
that an army could be had such that lovers and the beloved fight
side by side. As to the beloved being too old to be of age for
military service, this does not seem quite impossible, since
Pheadrus indicates that this was not the interpretation he gives to
the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus: "(the notion
that Patroclus was the beloved one is a foolish error into which
Aeschylus has fallen, for Achilles was surely the fairer of the
two... and he was much younger, as Homer informs us, and he has no
beard)." 2) This is remonstrated by Pausanius, who seems to
think it appropriate that the vulgar Aphrodite's love be forbidden,
since it "brings nothing but wantonness". Rather, lovers
inspired by the higher Aphrodite, (as someone alluded to earlier on
this list)"delight in him who is the more valiant and
intelligent nature...for they love not boys but intelligent beings
whose reason is beginning to be developed, much about the time at
which their beards begin to grow." 3) What do we say of the
drunken Alcibiades? He bursts into the party, and professes his
undying love and previous sexual advances upon Socrates. Two points
here: a) the sexual advance is indicated to have happened before the
two were on campaign at Potiditea b) Alcibiades' monologue is met
with laughter, "as he seemed to be still in love with Socrates."
It appears then, that such love was at least at this point in
Alcibiades' career inappropriate. The most interesting thing about
the whole account is that Phaedrus may be making an appeal, just as
Cohen is, to the glorious past of Greece, in order to justify his
claim about lovers in the army! It is one that neither Pausanius,
nor the rest of the company wholeheartedly advocate. As to the
comments regarding the indiscriminate mixing of history and
philosophy, even non-Hegelians occasionally ask if either of the two
can ever be adequately understood in a vacuum. "... it is now
important to integrate the results of these researches, conducted in
a very different spirit from that of the nineteenth century, and
thus to arrive at a more exact knowledge of man." Mircea
Eliade. On a more practical note, as a former military officer, it
behooves me to mention that whatever the results of allowing Gays in
the military, the process of their integration will be extremely
difficult, and potentially explosive. No appeal to precedents of
this nature are in the least way convincing to the average military
person.
Date:
Thu, 1 Apr 1993
From:
Joe Cotter
Subject:
Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT
There is a problem with having Plato refer in the Symposium to the
Theban Sacred Band (which features prominently in Cohen's
provocative effort at "haute vulgarisation"). Leutra
battle in 371 should be 15 or so years after Plato wrote Symposium.
Both Xenophon and Plato assume that Pausanias gave a speech ca. 420
BC in which an audience of Greeks was expected to have no trouble
(pace Tony Keen) with the proposition that pairs of lovers (the "Theban
Band" seems to have excluded non-gays like Xenophon as not
tough enough!:-))could prove effective in organizing military
forces. There is a danger of making the admittedly predominant "older
male/pubescent boy" stereotype a rigorous law. Pausanias and
Agathon were, of course, lovers for decades--there goes another easy
stereotype. The reception of Heracles myths in Thebes may give
evidence that the notion of brave homosexual pairs of fighters goes
back to the 6th century at least.
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1993 16:05:00 EST
From:
?
Subject: Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT
On the sacred band and homosexuality cf. James G. DeVoto, "The
Theban Sacred Band," The Ancient World XXIII.2 (1992) 3-19
Date:
Fri, 2 Apr 1993
From:
Robin Mitchell
There
are some accounts, in Demosthenes, I believe, of adult, equal
relationships. Charles Hedrick, do you remember the accounts John
Lynch dug up about this last summer?
Date:
Fri, 2 Apr 1993
From:
Tony Keen
Subject:
Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT
As
the foundations of my position crumble away beneath me... Well, I
suppose I should have expected that as soon as I made my blanket
statement about adult male/male sexual relationships not taking
place, people would provide evidence that they did (hell, I'm a
political historian, not a social one...). So, I accept that there
were such relationships, but I would still deny that they were the
norm in the same way that pederastic relationships were the norm.
Also, I would like to draw a very firm line (which I'm not sure
everyone else has) between physically-consummated relationships and
very close `platonic' (for want of a better word) relationships,
which is what the pederastic relationship usually develops into.
Date:
Fri, 2 Apr 1993
From:
James Hagy
Subject:
Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT
If the Greeks had banned homosexuals they would have lost the
Persian Wars. |
| Culled
from
classics.log9303
and
classics.log9304 |
|