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| chariots |
Date:
Wed, 7 Feb 1996
From:
"Debra A. Bailey"
Subject:
Chariots
This
message is sent in the hopes that list members can respond with the
information. I am a writer researching the subject of "chariots"
for a children's book. Except for repeated references to chariot
racing, a reference on the Hyksos introducing chariots to Egypt, a
book mentioning chariots being used for long distance travel, and
one other note about wheeled vehicles not allowed in Rome during the
day, I have not been able to find much. To give realism and accuracy
to the book I am trying to find the kind of details that only
someone familiar with the culture would know. Some things I'd like
to find out are:
1)
If you suddenly found yourself in ancient Rome, where would you
logically see chariots? Would you see them in the countryside very
much and what would they be doing?
2)
Who would be driving them? Military? Certain ranks only? Civilians?
Wealthy?
3)
Aside from racing, what other civilian or military uses did they
have?
4)
Any "rules of the road" for them? or customs etc.?
5)
What would driving one be like? Riding in one?
6) How much were they used by other ancient cultures...Greeks,
Egyptians etc.?
7)
Any sources that could give me more info on this? I would be
grateful for any information or sources anyone can provide.
Date:
Wed, 7 Feb 1996
From:
Leonard Lipschutz
Subject:
Re: Chariots
Don't
miss the unforgettable chariot image in Lucretius Book III (Tr. W.E.
Leonard): The man who sickens of his home goes out...he races,
driving his Gallic ponies along ..madly.. He yawns as soon as foot
has touched the threshold.. in such a way each human flees himself.
Date:
Tue, 13 Feb 1996
From:
Irvin Cohen
Subject:
Chariots
Cohen
Chariots You might try the Iliad. The story has some of the most
vivid descriptions of chariots, charioteers, and tactics in
antiquity.
Date:
Tue, 13 Feb 1996
From:
Steve Di Giacomo
Subject:
Re: Chariots
I would have thought so also, but then I read a book by M.I. Finley,
"The World of Odysseus", in which he points out that the
poet may have had no idea on how a chariot was supposed to be used.
The poet doesn't have his warriors riding into battle with them and
using them as weapons platforms. Instead he has his heroes/warriors
using them as taxicabs to the area of fighting. This seems a
reasonable mistake on the poet's part if he has only known the rough
terrain of Greece, as opposed to that of Anatolia. This is, I
suppose why the Greeks pursued the development of infantry equipment
and infantry tactics as opposed to cavalry. I wonder also if the
poet, writing after the demise of a more developed Mycenean
civilization, was indeed constructing his stories from a more
primitive perspective, and thereby suffered the effects of an
informational gap; i.e. whereas a Mycenean man-about-town in the
heyday of Mycenae might have known what an Egyptian or Mesopotamian
army would do with their chariots -- even if his own "country"
had no use for them -- some travelling bard in Homer's day would be
much less in the know on their use. Just speculating.
Date:
Wed, 14 Feb 1996
From:
Doug Mudd
Subject:
Re: Chariots
Just finished a book about the Myceneans which attempts to reconcile
the eviden ce from the linear B tablets of (primarily) Pylos and
Knossos with the archaeological evidence and present a more complete
view of their society- it is entitled "The Myceneans" I
believe(I have to find it to get the author). Anyway, Pylos and
Knossos both kept large chariot forces during he Mycenean period-
the tablets from Knossos list over 200 chariots with parts for
more... the Pylian tablets seem to list fewer, but still a
substantial number. Most parts of Anatolia aren't much flatter than
Greece. I guess they had to choose their battlefields carefully.
Date:
Wed, 14 Feb 1996
From:
Michael Pavkovic
Subject:
Re: Chariots
For the use of the chariot in battle and an interesting revision of
their use by the Mycenaeans I would suggest Robert Drews, _The End
of the Bronze Age. Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe ca. 1200
B.C._ (Princeton, 1993), 113-129, esp. 117ff.
Date:
Wed, 14 Feb 1996
From:
BRUMFIELD-A
Subject:
Re: Chariots
More
recent than Finley's thoughts on chariots is R. Drews The Coming of
the Greeks Princeton 1988. Very convincing on the development of
chariots and their use in warfare. Also read The Catastrophe of more
recent date 1993? can't remember the title exactly but it refers to
the destructions a;; all over the eastern Med in 1200 and
specifically to the development of infantry (hoplite) warfare- also
by Robert Drews He's quite convincing on the coming of the Greeks in
1600, not earlier and some other things.
Date:
Thu, 15 Feb 1996
From:
Steve Di Giacomo
Subject:
Re: Chariots/unemployed smiths in Antony Andrewes' bk.
Yes,
not only did I draw some ignorant conclusions but I had forgotten
that I had recently read something about the Mycenean inventory (et
alia) tablets in which chariots and wheels are listed. I am still
ignorant as to whether Homer's use of chariots in the Iliad is
accurate. I would still guess that it is not. Moving off the
subjects of chariots, I have a question for anyone who wishes to
answer it about a conclusion which Antony Andrewes draws in his
book, "The Greeks", 1967. At the bottom of page 24 he
writes, ". . . For instance, the authorities at Pylos issued
bronze to smiths, noting the amount to each by name, and also the
names of those who received no allocation; so we can say today how
many such unemployed smiths there were in each of some dozen
villages, in the year of Pylos's destruction." I feel safe in
supposing that Mr. Andrewes knows more about the issues here than,
oh say, me for instance. But is there something which he hasn't
included in the text here? I don't see that the only conclusion is
that the smiths who did not receive an amount of bronze were
necessarily unemployed. They may have already had plenty of bronze
and plenty of customers and commisions and plenty of bronze from a
different supply. Did the Mycenean king take over all of the
distribution of bronze? If you weren't on the list, were you really
out of work?
Date:
Fri, 16 Feb 1996
From: Doug Mudd
Subject: Re: Chariots/unemployed smiths in Antony Andrewes' bk.
The
book I mentioned previouly is "The Mycenean World", by
Chadwick(?). He believes that the tablets record a much shorter
period of time, basically the current season with emphasis on the
current month, and that the bronze issues reflect emergency issues
by the king for weapons. He has some evidence from other tablets
which he considers to support this argument. He also suggests that
Pylos was an exporter of bronze finished goods- this explains the
number of smiths- and that the disaster about to strike had already
disrupted the supply of bronze to Pylos- which had to come from
overseas.
Date:
Fri, 16 Feb 1996
From:
Mario Mion
Subject: Re: Chariots, warfare and democracy
Some
comments by a non-specialist in addition and in response to those of
Steve Di Giacomo, Doug Mudd and Allaire Brumfield: Finley (The World
of Odysseus) does say that Homer must have been wrong on the proper
original (Bronze Age) combat function of chariots (as opposed to the
"taxy function"); however, his comment is quite in passing
and without argument or evidence that in Homer's own time the
chariot was perhaps used only as a means of conveyance to the battle
field, rather than as it seems to have been used previously, ie. as
a mobile platform for a dfriver/archer. Drews (1993) agrees with
Finley's assessment that Homer must have been wrong about the Bronze
Age function of the chariot. Indeed! However, he also concedes the
possibility that Homer may well have been correct regarding chariots
in his own time, i.e. after the Catastrophe (p. 116). David Hanson
(The Western Way of War, 1989, a work that focuses on the
development of infantry/hoplites), makes a brief reference to the "mounted
fighters of the Greek Dark Ages [1200-800] who dismounted to throw
the spear" is perhaps plausible but unsubstantiated (p. 27).
Finally, is someone suggesting a relationship between the decline of
chariot warfare, the emergence of infnatry combat and democracy?
Date:
Fri, 16 Feb 1996
From:
Steve Di Giacomo
Subject:
Re: Chariots, warfare and democracy
That's
a tempting one, even to a novice like me. It would seem to me that
cavalry and chariots are very expensive, and therefore the property
of the few rich and powerful. More people could afford some armor
and sword and spear than those who could also afford to equip, keep,
and pasture a horse. So what do you think? Is there a theory that
the move to infantry forces, even to the neglect of cavalry actually
led to conditions which were conducive to the rise of democratic
notions? At least as far as buying your own gear I can easily
suppose that if a government demands that you pay for your own
equipment to fight for said government, then you are more likely to
make a counter-demand to have some say in the government. A process
which builds over generations, and provides a grass roots atmosphere
of sentiment which becomes receptive to notions individual citizen's
rights -- in as far as the citizen pulls his share of the load for
the state. Hopefully my speculation is wide of the truth and a
number of subscribers will feel impelled to correct my cocky
ignorance.
Date:
Fri, 16 Feb 1996
From:
Irvin Cohen
Subject:
Chariots
Gentlemen, some weeks ago someone posted a request for information
on chariots in order to write a children's book. I was quite amused
that after I suggested the Iliad there followed numerous over
analyzed responses. The fact that this epic was written around 7
B.C. about an event that took place 1250 B.C. seems to have escaped
everyone's attention. No doubt the bards of that time did not have
the information highway, which is at the disposal of our modern day
scholars, yet they were 2000 years closer to the event then
ourselves. We all understand that history was initially past on in
an oral tradition until the civilizations in question took up the
pen or stylus, whichever. Even if those traditions after thousands
of years became chronologically out of order or even mysticized they
captured in a broad brush stroke the events of that time. The great
flood is captured in a number of ancient civilizations mythology.
Our last ice age ended around 8000 B.C. and the water levels rose
around 400 feet. Quite traumatic for civilizations built on ancient
coast lines. So lets give old Homer or the unknown bards a break,
even if their traditions might not be as exacting as modern day
scholars would like. |
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